Interview subject Ross Blocher, co-host of the Oh No! Ross and Carrie podcast
From the moment it began airing, the A&E documentary Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath appealed to my oft-intrusive skeptical instincts. Raised in a religious Jewish home, I remain quite spiritual in many ways, but tend to turn things over mentally. I am forever intrigued by why people believe what they do and ideologies mystify me. Ross Blocher of the Oh No! Ross and Carrie podcast is a self-described “skeptic” who has this tendency in common with me. Although no longer part of the Evangelical Christian (Assemblies of God Church) community he grew up in, his curiosities and interest in learning about beliefs only intensified in the absence of religion. In fact, he has made it an ever-present theme and the focus of his podcast with co-host Carrie Poppy. Unfortunately, Carrie was suffering from a migraine the night I spoke with Ross and was unable to participate in the interview, but he and I discussed the duo’s exploration of Scientology (before they were asked to leave the LA church!), their 9-episode series on the subject and Leah Remini’s documentary. We also touched on other deep dives he and Carrie have taken into religious groups, fringe science, alternative medicine, spirituality and - in Ross’s words - "anything else at the intersection of science and belief." While the Scientology series caught my attention due to A&E, next up on my listening list are the episodes on Mormonism, Christian Science, Kabbalah and the Aetherius Society (think: Extraterrestrials and UFOs).
SW: Let’s begin with how your upbringing lent itself to the podcast you co-host today.
RB: I’ve always had this personality quirk of exploring or debating religions and looking into things in an effort to understand them. It is what led me - back when I was in college - to check out the Skeptics Society. I attended meetings for a year and a half before having my ‘crisis of faith.’ I had to be honest with myself and I had to come out to my family (as not sharing their religious views), but I was always interested to hear firsthand from people about their own ideologies and faiths and what makes them believe.
SW: I’m kind of obsessed with Scientology at the moment. I’m in awe of Leah Remini, how she left the church and how she’s speaking out so strongly now despite threats and intimidation. I’d love to know what you and Carrie think about her documentary. Does it parallel what you and Carrie saw when you checked out Scientology for your podcast?
RB: Both of us have read Leah’s book Troublemaker and we watch the series and love it. I’m intrigued that there are so many criticisms coming from different angles. We interviewed Chris Shelton who was a 17 year Sea Org member and he deepened our understanding of the Sea Org which Leah was part of as a child and which many subjects of the A&E documentary belonged to. Leah has a different vantage point as a celebrity: She was treated a different way while she was acting and in the public eye and as a Sea Org member. Chris appreciated what Carrie and I did when we researched Scientology and checked out the church because we really got a different perspective as two people coming from off the street (in LA) as opposed to Sea Org members. Our series was essentially ‘here’s what happens when you show up and ask normal questions.’
SW: I was shocked when a female minister found out who you guys were, that you have a podcast that explores religious groups and she said she discovered all of this through someone in the Mormon community?
RB: One former Scientologist said afterwards that that was likely a ruse. As a Sea Org member, she has no time to hang out with Mormons. She’s working all day. We were actually surprised from the beginning that the Church of Scientology didn’t look us up right away. On the other hand, we kind of were aware that there was a shield because none of them are allowed to freely search the internet. Through my course work and studies with the church during this investigation, I must have gotten to a stage where there was a case file opened and they were reviewing me for (what’s called) the ‘Purification Rundown’ and they did some external investigation.
SW: Have you heard anything from the Church of Scientology since your series aired? They’re known to be quite litigious.
RB: No, actually. They took me off their mailing list after I showed up for a birthday party for L. Ron Hubbard at The Celebrity Center. Carrie tried to reach out to the local org to confirm whether we are ‘Suppressive Persons.’ She wrote that she’d like to know if we had been declared. I know they had been ‘safe pointing’ me as they call it, and they kicked me out in a positive sort of way towards the end. They ended off by giving me an invitation to come back (to the org) to look at displays. So in Carrie’s letter, she asked about that and if they wanted to send anyone to be on our podcast. We thought that way, our reporting wouldn’t be one-sided. It would also give them the opportunity to say anything we got wrong. They didn’t respond but we would have loved to have had that conversation with someone from the church.
We’re not worried about lawsuits at this point because they would have done something already. We were nervous when we went into the investigation, and after releasing our episodes, we thought maybe they would come after us as they did with other reporters. I think we benefited greatly from the timing of our investigation. We came at a point when Scientology doesn’t have the ability to control the conversation. There are so many other larger targets now – i.e. Leah Remini. We didn’t leave with church doctrine and high level information to share and there are so many other problems right now.
SW: To me, it seems that Scientology has some outlandish concepts and with their process, you don’t get answers up front. So, why do you think people stick with it?
RB: I think a lot has to do with the ‘sunk cost fallacy.’ Once you have really invested in something, you are far more willing to give it extra leniency and judge it less harshly. There’s a particular reason people are brought into Scientology with very cheap classes. There is lots of encouragement and friendliness initially as well. As time goes on, you spend more money and it becomes harsher and stranger. By the time you learn the science fiction stuff, you’ve sunk maybe even as much as hundreds of thousands of dollars into it. The reason Scientology is so interesting is that it’s the flagship example of how abusive and controlling people can be within a belief system. The fact that people can get away with that is so surprising. I don’t know how L Ron Hubbard had the chutzpah to say some of the things he said because I’m fairly certain he knew he was lying. The fact that people can buy into it is a fascinating transaction. My feelings here reflect the feelings that drove me in the pursuit of this podcast: How does a process like this get started and how does it sustain itself and turn into a movement…a religion?
A major reason why Scientologists remain committed is what Leah says so perfectly: When you’re a believing Scientologist you feel you are saving the world and that you’re going to clear the planet and help us all get past the horrible issues we deal with in our everyday lives.
SW: I have an acquaintance who told me she’s a Scientologist and she hasn’t seen any of the ‘extreme’ things the media is depicting. What type of Scientology do you think she’s referring to?
RB: She probably goes in to the church when she wants and takes classes. She gets good life advice mixed in with some kooky things and she contributes a substantial amount of money, but it’s a far cry from what many others within the church – those who work for it and those in the Sea Org – experience.
Many Scientologists have left because of David Miscavige, or they practice independently of him and by doing so, the official church labels them Suppressive Persons.
SW: On the podcast, you guys discuss how towards the end of your Scientology exploration, you are at the LA Scientology building and David Miscavige himself is alerted to your presence! – What was that like?
RB: That’s what I thought I heard. Someone came in the room and leaned into the session leader’s ear. I could’ve sworn they whispered ‘Call in Miscavige.’ Then the session leader went off and when he came back in, he promptly got me out of the building. I don’t know how Miscavige manages his time and I was surprised that he would be personally concerned about my presence and Carrie’s. We learned from previous mistakes to release this entire series at once. That way, we wouldn’t be stopped from releasing any new episodes. This was extremely time consuming and Carrie and I both have day jobs in addition to the podcast.
SW: You say you learned from past mistakes, so when was your cover blown before?
RB: The clearest example is when we went to the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) (people), a Black magic group based on the teachings of Aleister Crowley. There we were in the midst of watching the incantations and the naked priestesses and there were crackers that may or may not have contained human sperm…We ended up releasing an episode and went back. By that time, they had heard about us and kicked us out summarily. It was probably the most awkward moment of my life!
We were surprised we got as far as we did with Scientology because they had our names from the start as well as credit card information. It would have been easy to investigate us. Since we began the podcast, Scientology has been the number one request from listeners. We were both nervous about it, but I kind of tricked Carrie into this one! We had just done personality testing and I said that just for fun, we should do Scientology personality tests. When the church didn’t immediately look us up, I said we better run with this while we can.
SW: Has the number of subscribers gone up since the A&E documentary? I ask because that’s how I found your podcast. I put “Scientology” into the search bar of the Podcast app.
RB: I don’t know if it correlated with the A&E documentary, but we’ve definitely had our numbers go up. We’re constantly hearing from people who were in Scientology. We’re also still hearing from Mormon people still in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Carrie and I always cite our Mormon series as most impactful. It’s one we did very early on. That was the investigation that affected us the most emotionally and where we really made the deepest connections to people.
SW: You sound secure in your status as a skeptic, but does anyone assume you guys are searching for spirituality because of the podcast?
RB: Yes! A lot of people assume something is missing in our lives – that there’s a god-shaped hole or an alien shaped hole…It really has nothing to do with that. I feel very content, but I’m trying to understand and get a more basic grasp on how things work, which I use as the metric by which I measure the ideas we encounter. Carrie and I both share this fascination with the psychology of belief. We want to hear how people present it. We want to absorb it and process it and we have a genuinely good time! I don’t pretend to be curious. The questions come naturally.
Carrie and I state this on the podcast and it’s important to emphasize: We are open to having our own beliefs changed. That’s how I got into this whole mess to begin with. I was willing to leave the faith of my upbringing because I really care about what is true. We do go into these things open to being convinced. We really want to hear people out. The show is us sharing our reactions and processing them out loud. Sometimes there are really good nuggets of wisdom and we try to parse that out.
SW: There are some people who come across as very smug in their beliefs, so it speaks volumes of the two of you that there’s no condescension. I think that humility endears you to your listeners. I even recently heard someone say they thought Meryl Streep was condescending when she (in my mind) implored for societal empathy and compassion! It’s so hard not to come across as “I’m more informed than you are” when you disagree with something. In some ways, Trumpism seems like a movement and sort of like a religion to me!
RB: I’m still processing the Trump situation myself, but when it comes to religion there’s a parallel: The mind of an apologist - someone who will defend the faith (or the cause) so to speak - uses a lot of brain power. Usually, very intelligent people are able to do this and they find ways to justify foolish or wrong beliefs by highlighting certain aspects of the argument and focusing on this to the exclusion of others. Doing those types of mental back flips takes a lot of exercise.
Oh No! Ross and Carrie is a monthly podcast. You can listen here or by subscribing through the Podcast app for iPhones: http://www.maximumfun.org/shows/oh-no-ross-and-carrie.
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